Stanislav Grof - Interview with Dr. Albert Hofmann.pdf - Grof - PDF - krutszy

Stanislav Grof interviews Dr. Albert Hofmann

Esalen Institute, Big Sur, California, 1984.

Editor’s note: This remarkable dialogue from 1984 has never been published.

We’re printing it now in part to provide historical context for a new effort, in which

MAPS is participating, to restart LSD psychotherapy research in the United States. In

addition, this dialogue addresses and helps clarify the idealist view of the potential

value of psychedelics, when used properly, to help “engender ecological

sensitivity, reverence for life, and capacity for peaceful cooperation with other

people and other species,” qualities that are desperately needed in these times of

terrorism and war.

Grof: It is a great pleasure and an honor for me this morning to welcome and introduce Dr.

Albert Hofmann, to the extent to which he needs introduction at all. As you all know, he

became world famous for his discovery of a compound that is probably the most

controversial substance ever developed by man, diethylamide of lysergic acid, or LSD-25.

When LSD made its entry into the world of science, it became an overnight sensation

because of its remarkable effects and also its unprecedented potency. It seemed to hold

tremendous promise in the research of the nature and etiology of schizophrenia, as an

extraordinary therapeutic agent, as a very unconventional tool for training of mental health

professionals, and as a source of inspiration for artists.

Dr. Hofmann’s discovery of LSD generated a powerful wave of interest in brain

chemistry and, together with the development of tranquilizers, was directly responsible for

what has been called the “golden age of psychopharmacology.” And then his prodigious

child became a “problem child”. This extraordinarily promising chapter in psychology and

psychiatry was drastically interrupted by unsupervised mass self-experimentation and the

ensuing repressive administrative, legislative, and political measures, as well as the

chromosome scare and the abuse by the military and secret police. But I firmly believe that

this chapter is far from being closed. Whether or not LSD research and therapy as such will

return into modern society, the discoveries that psychedelics made possible have profound

revolutionary implications for our understanding of the psyche, human nature, and the

nature of reality. And these new insights are here to stay as an important part of the emerging

scientific world view of the future.

Before we start this interview, I would like to add a little personal note. Dr. Hofmann’s

discovery of LSD and his work, in general, have had a profound impact on my own

professional and personal life, for which I am immensely grateful. My first LSD session in

1956, when I was a beginning psychiatrist, was a critical landmark and turning point for me

and since then my life has never been the same. So this interview gives me the opportunity

to express my deep appreciation and gratitude to Dr. Hofmann for the influence he has had

on my life.

What I would like to ask you first has something to do with the way people tend to

qualify your discovery of the psychedelic effects of LSD. It is usually referred to as a pure

accident, implying that there was nothing more involved in this entire matter than your

fortuitous intoxication. But I know from you that the history was somewhat more complex

than that. Can you clarify

this for us?

“...the discoveries that

psychedelics made possible have

profound revolutionary

implications for our

understanding of the psyche,

human nature, and the nature of

reality.” - S.G.

time, in the 1930s, a new

ergot alkaloid had been

discovered which is

named ergometrine, or

ergonovine. It is the real

active principle of ergot.

The presence of this al-

kaloid in ergot is the rea-

son why it has been used

in obstetrics to stop uter-

ine bleeding and as an

oxytoxic. And this sub-

stance turned out to be an amide of lysergic acid.

Until the late 1930s, it had not been possible to

prepare such substances in the laboratory. I discovered a

technical procedure that made it possible and was able to

achieve partial synthesis of ergonovine; I then also used

this procedure to prepare other lysergamides. First came

the modifications of ergonovine and one of these modifi-

Hofmann: Yes, it is true that

my discovery of LSD was a

chance discovery, but it was

the outcome of planned ex-

periments and these experi-

ments took place in the

framework of systematic

pharmaceutical, chemical

research. It could better be

described as serendipity. That means that you look for

something, you have a certain plan, and then you find

something else, different, that may nevertheless be useful.

And that is exactly what happened with LSD. I had

developed a method for the synthesis of lysergic acid

amides in the context of a systematic study, the purpose of

which was to synthesize natural ergot alkaloids. At that

cations, methergine, a homologue of ergonovine, is today

the leading medicament in obstetrics to stop postpartum

bleeding. I also used this procedure to prepare not so close

derivatives of ergonovine, more different than

methergine. And one of these compounds was LSD-25,

lysergic acid diethylamide. The plan, the intention I had,

was to prepare an analeptic, a circulatory and breathing

stimulant.

happened. Then I considered the possibility that it might

have been the substance I had prepared. But it did not

make any sense. I knew I was very careful and my work

was very clean. And, of course, I did not taste anything.

But I was open to the fact that, maybe, some trace of

the substance had in some way passed into my body.

That, maybe, a drop of the solution had come onto my

fingertips and, when I rubbed my eyes, it got into the

conjunctival sacs. But, if this compound was the

reason for this strange experience I had, then it had to

be very, very active. That was clear from the very

beginning because I had not ingested anything. I was

puzzled and decided to conduct some experiments

to clear up this thing, to find out what was the reason

for that extraordinary condition I had experienced.

Being a cautious man, I started this experiment

with only 0.25 milligrams (the ergot alkaloids are

usually administered in milligram dosages). That is an

extremely low dose and I expected it would not have any

activity. I thought I would increase very cautiously the

quantity of LSD in subsequent experiments to see if any

of the dosages were active. It turned out that when I

ingested this quarter of a milligram, I had taken a very

strong, a very high dosage of a very, very active com-

pound. I got into a strange state of consciousness. Every-

thing in my surroundings changed - the colors, the forms,

and also the feeling of my ego had changed. It was very

strange! And I became very anxious that I had taken too

much and I asked my assistant to accompany me home.

At that time we had no car available and we went home by

bicycle.

“I got into a dreamlike condition, in

which all of my surrounding was

transforming. My experience of

reality had changed and it was rather

agreeable.” - A.H.

Grof: Was there some indication in the early animal

experiments that LSD could be an activating agent?

Hofmann: No, I made LSD because it is an analog of

coramine, which is diethylamide of nicotinic acid. Be-

cause of the structural relationship between LSD and the

ring of the nicotinic acid, I hoped to get an analeptic. But

our pharmacologist concluded that lysergic acid diethyla-

mide did not have any clinically interesting properties

and suggested that it be dropped out of research. That

happened in the year 1938. But all along, I had a strange

feeling that we should again test this substance on a

broader scale. Then, five years later, in 1943, I finally

decided to synthesize another sample of LSD. At the end

of the synthesis, something very strange happened. I got

into a dreamlike condition, in which all of my surround-

ing was transforming. My experience of reality had

changed and it was rather agreeable. In any case, I left the

laboratory, went home, lay down and enjoyed a nice

dreamlike state which then passed away.

Grof: Many people who have taken LSD, particularly in

such a high dose, have a lot of respect for that ride. They

realize what it is to ride a bicycle in that kind of a

condition.

Hofmann: During this trip home on the bicycle - it was

about four kilometers - I had the feeling that I could not

move from the spot. I was cycling, cycling, but the time

seemed to stand still. In my report afterward, I mentioned

this trip on the bicycle to show that LSD affected the

experience of time, as an example of the distortion of the

sense of time. Then the bicycle trip became a characteris-

tic aspect of the LSD discovery. As we arrived home, I was

in a very, very bad condition. It was such a strange reality,

such a strange new universe which I had entered, that I

believed I had now become insane. I asked my assistant to

Grof: Did you immediately suspect that this was an

intoxication from the drug you were working with?

Hofmann: I had the suspicion that it was caused by

something from the laboratory, but I believed that it

could have been caused by the solvent I had used at that

time. I had used dichlorethylene, something like chloro-

form, in the very final state of preparation. So, the next

day in the laboratory, I tried the solvent and nothing

call the doctor. When the doctor arrived, I told him that

I was dying. I had the feeling that my body had absolutely

no feeling any more. He tested me and shook his head,

because everything was OK.

Then, my condition became worse and worse. When

I was lying on my couch, I had the feeling that I had

already died. I believed, I had a sense that I was out of my

body. It was a terrifying experience! The doctor did not

give me anything, but I drank a lot of milk, as an

unspecific detoxicant. After about six hours, the experi-

ence of the outer world started to change. I had the feeling

of coming back from a very strange land, home to our

everyday reality.

And it was a very, very happy feeling and a very

could be used in the drug scene, just for pleasure. For me

it was a deep and mystical experience and not just an

everyday pleasurable one. I never had the idea that it

could be used as a pleasure drug. And then, soon after my

experience, LSD came into the hands of psychiatrists.

The son of my boss at that time, Dr. Werner Stoll, who

was working at the Burghoeltzli Psychiatric Institute in

Zurich, conducted the initial experiments with LSD.

First, we checked it in our laboratory, because the

head of the Chemical Department, Professor Stoll, and

the head of the Pharmacology Department, Professor

Rothlin, said that what I was telling them was not

possible. They told me: “You must have made a mistake

when you measured the dosage. It is impossible that such

“I was cycling, cycling, but the time seemed to stand still.” - A.H.

beautiful experience. After some time, with my eyes

closed, I began to enjoy this wonderful play of colors and

forms, which it really was a pleasure to observe. Then I

went to sleep and the next day I was fine. I felt quite fresh,

like a newborn. It was an April day and I went out into the

garden. It had been raining during the night. I had the

feeling that I saw the earth and the beauty of nature as it

had been when it was created, at the first day of creation.

It was a beautiful experience! I was reborn, seeing nature

in quite a new light.

a low dosage could have an effect.” And Professor Rothlin

then made an experiment with two of his assistants. They

took only one fifth of what I had taken, 50 micrograms, to

check it out. And even then, they had a full-blown

experience!

Grof: So, this was, in a nutshell, the story of the discov-

ery of LSD. And then we come to the next important

chapter of your psychedelic research, the isolation and

identification of the active principles of the magic

mushrooms of the Mazatec Indians in Mexico. How

long after the discovery of the psychedelic effects of

LSD did Gordon Wasson contact you?

Grof: We have seen this kind of sequence, the death-

rebirth process, very regularly in psychedelic sessions.

Many people link this experience to the memory of their

biological birth. I wanted to ask you, if during the time

when it was happening, it was just an encounter with

death or if you also had the feeling that you were involved

in a biological birthing process?

Hofmann: For the first ten years, LSD was my “wonder

child”, we had a positive reaction from everywhere in the

world. Around two thousand publications about it ap-

peared in scientific journals and everything was fine.

Then, at the beginning of the 1960s, here in the United

States, LSD became a drug of abuse. In a short time, this

wave of popular use swept the country and it became

“drug number one”. It was then used without caution

Hofmann: No, the first phase was a very terrifying

experience, because I did not know if I would recover.

First, I had the feeling that I was insane and then I had the

feeling I was dying. But then, when I was coming back, I

had of course the feeling of rebirth.

“The reason for our success

was that we used our own

team for testing the fractions

and did not rely on animal

experiments.” - A.H.

Grof: When did you become aware that this drug could

be of significance to psychiatry?

Hofmann: Immediately! I knew immediately that this

drug would have importance for psychiatry! But, at that

time, I would never have believed that this substance

and people were not prepared and informed about its

deep effects. And then all kinds of things happened,

which caused LSD to become an infamous drug. It was a

troublesome time! Telephones,

panic, and alarm! This had hap-

pened, that had happened.... it

was a breakdown. Instead of a

“wonder child”, LSD suddenly

became my “problem child”.

I saw in the newspaper a

notice that an American ama-

teur mycologist and ethnologist,

Gordon Wasson, and his wife

had discovered mushrooms

which were used in a ritual way

by the Indians. These mushrooms seemed to contain a

hallucinogen that produced an LSD-like effect. Of

course, I did not know who these ethnologists were, but I

certainly was interested in investigating these mush-

rooms. Then, I got a letter from Professor Heim, a French

mycologist from the Sorbonne in Paris. Mr. Wasson and

his wife, who had discovered this very old Mexican

mushroom cult and had published information about

the ritual use of these mushrooms, had sent him some

samples. They had asked him if he could examine the

mushrooms and make a precise botanical investigation.

Professor Heim tried to isolate the active principle

from the mushrooms, but did not succeed. Gordon

Wasson had also initiated chemical studies of the mush-

rooms in the United States, at the University of Dela-

ware, but this work had not brought any positive results

either. And so Professor Heim, who knew about the work

we had done with LSD in Basel, asked me in his letter if I

would be interested in taking on this research. So, in this

way, LSD attracted the mushrooms to come into my

laboratory.

At first, we had only 200 or 300 grams of these

mushrooms. We tested them in animals, since we had

some experience with LSD and we knew what kind of

pharmacological activity could

be expected from such psychoac-

tive principles. We did not find

anything and our pharmacolo-

gist suggested that the mush-

rooms probably were not active

at all, that they were the wrong

mushrooms, or that they had lost

their activity when they had been

dried in Paris. In any case, to clear

the problem, I decided to make a

self-experiment. I took a dosage

that was mentioned in the prescriptions in the old

chronicles - 2.4 grams of dried mushrooms - and I had a

full-blown LSD experience.

And it was very strange. I took it in the laboratory and

I had to go home, because I had again taken a dosage that

was rather high. At home, everything looked Mexican -

the rooms and surroundings - although I had never been

in Mexico before. I thought that I must have imagined all

that, because I knew that the mushrooms had come from

Mexico. For example, I had a colleague, a doctor who

supervised me for this experiment. When he checked my

blood pressure, I saw him as an Aztec. He had a German

face, but for me he became an Aztec priest and I had the

feeling he would open my chest and take out my heart. It

was really an absolutely Mexican experience!

After a few hours, I came back from the Mexican

landscape and I knew that we had not used the right tests.

The work with animals would not have taken us any-

where; we had to test the activity (of the various amounts)

in humans. And from then on, my colleagues and I tested

personally all the extracts we made from the mushrooms.

We extracted them with different solvents and used

fractionating procedures to isolate the active principles.

“We explained to Maria Sabina

that we had isolated the spirit of

the mushrooms and that it was

now in these little pills. She was

fascinated and agreed to make a

ceremony for us.”

- A.H.

Grof: How many steps did it take you from the beginning

to the end to identify chemically the active principles?

Hofmann: We had about five or six steps. Finally, we

ended up with a very small quantity, several milligrams of

concentrated material that was still amorphous. And we

could use it to make a paper chromatogram. It turned out

that the substance was concentrated in four phases. We

cut the paper chromatogram and four of my colleagues

“..I saw the earth and the

beauty of nature as it had

been when it was created, at

the first day of creation. It

was a beautiful experience!

I was reborn, seeing nature

in quite a new light.” - A.H.

Stanislav Grof - Interview with Dr. Albert Hofmann.pdf

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